This is the only relevant debate in the entire world of crypto. All other coins are utterly irrelevant trash.
Do you choose
traceability and fealty to the global banking system
or
privacy and self sovereignty
Your choice will have consequences for decades to come.
I choose both
330 BTC
1233 XMR
Monero eventually wins because
1. Private
2. Tail Emission
But the problem is Monero eventually wins when all of us are like 60-70 years old, for most of our lives it will be Bitcoin dominating
Why do you think it takes so long? The chart looks like it's ready to go crazy
both are needed
Why is Bitcoin needed? Hardmode: Monero exists.
Because it will take 30 years for people to realise Block rewards are too small and AI will have fully de-anonymised Bitcoin causing trillions in back taxes to be owed.
I like both but the tail emission shit is irrelevant and you're a mathlet if you care.
A predictable 1% increase in money supply ranges from trivial to actually still noninflationary/deflationary.
1. Retards fuck up crypto all the time, PCs blow up without backups and neckbeards die without having heirs or explaining access to crypto. 1%+ destruction of the money supply in this way isn't unreasonable. In that case the true increase in money supply in the tail emission phase is well below 1% to just outright negative.
2. The fact that this increase is known and predictable and even assuming 0 loss only 1% doesn't disrupt valuations meaningfully. There's always more gold being mined too, doesn't really impact the valuation as it's such a small percentage of supply (usually, ignore conquests of the new world, though even then the massive inflation was something like 3% annualized)
I see bitcoin as guaranteed to go up exponentially. Monero clearly is not performing anywhere close to as well as bitcoin as it hasn't even reached its 2017 spike while bitcoin is 5x its 2017 spike. You could say well it's going to come back but that's a gamble. bitcoin is not a gamble. But if I could choose one coin to root for surpassing the other and all other coins, it would be monero. Still not selling any bitcoin for it though.
XMR chart actually looks really good, I bought some recently because it looks like it could finally break out
Bitcoins price action is just manipulation. XMR’s chart actually shows the growth of the Monero economy (and speculation on it).
BTC’s price basically shows “here’s where exchanges/banks/governments” pumped or dumped.
Block rewards are too small
Why is this an issue? This simply means btc will have to be a very high price to compensate. Why is number go up a bad thing?
why is number go up bad
It’s literally a Ponzi scheme. It can run fine for a while but once there are clearly better crypto systems out there, many will question what is the point of holding it.
Monero fixes this btw.
This looks pretty normal and predictable to me. Yes the whales probably illegally collude and manipulate the market to accumulate more—although I don't think exchanges and ETFs would do something so risky and stupid. That's probably what accounts for the variability, but Metcalfe's law is what accounts for the regular (albeit diminishing) exponential growth. Monero doesn't benefit from the same network effect because fewer people use it. I guess if governments become overbearing one day Monero will become more popular and valuable but frankly we don't want that. We just want inflation-proof money. The exponential growth is a bonus.
Do you believe btc will have a huge price to compensate for the small block rewards in the future?
fewer people use Monero
True only in a blockchain transaction (trading) sense. Monero use, in the sense of exchanging goods and services, already exceeds BTC in certain markets.
”risky” moves by ETFs/governments
You don’t understand market dynamics. There is no risk when you’re the entity controlling the price. They’re not “risking” volatility, they’re causing it.
overbearing government
First of all this is practically a certainty given what we’ve seen in recent years. Even incorporating BTC into official government policies does this through the public transaction ledger. But BTC’s inferiority to XMR isn’t contingent on government overreach. Anyone can see the blockchain. All sorts of corporations and nefarious actors will use chain analysis. All of your transactions will become public. All “pseudonymous” systems will be made viewable. Only full privacy will fix it.
For a time. But at a certain market cap you can’t force trillions into a market just to keep miners happy. Tail emission is a better solution.
Both are important and relevant.
BTC = Store of value.
Monero = Used for privacy on chain
I like both.
The coin used as a medium of exchange (Monero) will have a good path toward becoming a store of value as well. There’s very little propping up BTC’s claim as a store of value once this happens. It’s just the meme of being first.
No the supply curves of bitcoin and monero intersect again in about a year
Who is paying all these monero indian shills? When will shit coiners learn their place? 1m per BTC? Maybe 10?
The chart looks like it's ready to go crazy
The AML concerns around XMR means that there will never be a large enough bid for it to really compete against BTC.
The reality is that if the price doesn't keep up then there's a drop in hash rate proportional to mining fees. But so what? Like no one cares. You could have a 90% drop in the hash rate and it'd still be just fine
This is the only relevant debate
IT'S NOT A DEBATE, MAXI-FAG
BECAUSE YOU CAN USE BOTH
YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHOOSE LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO
BAGHOLDERS ARE FUCKING DELUSIONAL
BRO YOU HAVE TO BUY ONE OR THE OTHER
HOW ABOUT I USE BOTH
EAT SHIT FIATCEL MONKEY
hiding from a memetic parasite
Pathetic.
nigga you aren't getting it.
if BTC becomes "global money" then baselayer usage will be hamstrung by its blocks being tiny. So if the hashrate dumps it means transaction fees will become even higher to offset this. It's a negative feedback loop which will either 1. make Bitcoin an NFT that is terrible as cash (the likely option) or 2. force people to use (((lightning network))).
If there’s adequate demand for large blocks, a larger block fork will dominate, there’s no advantage to planning, indeed, planning in such a complex system as Economy is fully impossible, Economy will find an effective path via omnidirectional growth and then bolster that path as that path is more efficient than the alternatives.
I see bitcoin as guaranteed to go up exponentially.
Impossible. Its just investors buying from other investors now, there's no growing userbase of actual users i.e. buyers buying purely for the tech and not for profit. When every buyer is an investor, when all the gains are coming from other profit seekers, you have yourself a ponzi scheme that is guaranteed to implode eventually.
Bitcoiners are exceptionally gifted at self-delusion, the way they can ignore basic math and buy into unrealistic adoption narratives in order to sleep at night is actually quite impressive.
monero tends towards centralisation due to bloat. It's use case also hinges solely on bitcoin's lack of privacy, which is not assured in the future with certain developments in recent years.
the mining difficulty adapts with hash rate. It's a self-correcting system. That other poster is right, the bleating about block rewards is just ignorance.
You *literally* don't know what a ponzi scheme is. Btc is the furthest thing from a ponzi in the whole cryptosphere. A ponzi is centrally controlled and tricks investors into thinking they are investing into something they are not. Btc is the most decentralised coin and has the most real utility as a hard store of value backed by energy. If btc is a "ponzi" then any intangible asset is a ponzi. Stop repeating stupid shit you read on twitter.
even if BTC sucks it automatically doesn’t suck
Endowment effect
Status quo bias
Competitive blindness
A ponzi is centrally controlled and tricks investors into thinking they are investing into something they are not.
You have *exactly* described BTC. People think they are investing in “peer to peer digital cash” but are instead investing in a meme with no utility except its connection to the surveillance state. It is centrally controlled by market manipulating actors who intentionally prop up its price because of its usefulness as a tool of control.
oh yeah, a bigger block hard fork. I wonder how that would turn out lmao
Btc is the furthest thing from a ponzi in the whole cryptosphere. A ponzi is centrally controlled and tricks investors into thinking they are investing into something they are not.
Semantics. Bitcoin's ROI model is mathematically identical to a ponzi scheme. Any such model where investors far outnumber non-investors inevitably is.
If most of the demand and therefore profit for BTC was still coming from normies going shopping on the darknet/whatever, the math would work out so no ponzi. But now that everybody buying BTC expects exponential returns, the math breaks down so ponzi as fuck.
I'm not against monero but how do you audit how much monero is circulating?
how do you audit how much monero is circulating?
within RingCT XMR amounts are set and encrypted using a zero-knowledge proving system, specifically Pedersen commitments. The resulting homomorphic hash can then have mathematical calculations performed on it to verify the validity of its hidden value. In other words, even without knowing, without being able to directly observe specific XMR amounts we can still nonetheless mathematically prove their correctness and confirm that no extra coins have materialized i.e. that inputs and outputs are balanced and everything adds up perfectly, ergo "zero-knowledge" proof.
But the most practical way to validate the opaque accounting is by summing up block rewards i.e. coinbase outputs. Since freshly-minted coins have no transaction history, they don't require shielding, meaning every single XMR coin that enters the ecosystem is briefly visible until it forever disappears into the shielded RingCT pool. Because the fixed emission rate tells us exactly how many coins should be in circulation at any given moment, as long as the tally of coins transparently entering the ecosystem = the expected in-circulation number we can be very confident that the underlying math keeping everything in check is working properly.
Furthermore, double-spending of existing amounts is prevented by key images. A key image is unique to each output and is only revealed once the funds have been spent. This allows anybody to verify that the amount to be spent hasn't already been transacted before.
If you actually want to be able to spend your money on stuff eventually - the money/crypto needs to be traceable to some degree and you need to pay taxes.
Unless you are only using petty sums or operating in the black market.
So, BTC wins hands down.
you need to pay taxes.
Well, you do. Especially with larger sums spent on actual products. Eventually you will need to explain where the money comes from. If you can't explain it then they will take your life a way or you will be a fugitive.
XMR has view keys. You can imagine a tax regime that basically says “ok you can use Monero but you have to show the government your view keys”
This is drastically better than BTC which shows the entire world everyone’s transaction history, opening them up to widespread data harvesting, coercion and other threats.
So, XMR wins hands down.
You can imagine a tax regime that basically says “ok you can use Monero but you have to show the government your view keys
That's possible I guess.
whats behind the inorganic shilling of monero on this board the past week? nobody has cared about it for years and all of a suddent he catalog is full of 10 threads daily about XMR. i always knew it was the real winner that would replace bitcoin but people are too retarded and its not like they were all redpilled overnight so theres soemthing kikey about this artificial astroturfing
It’s just time brother. People have to find out sooner or later. The hack put a lot of eyes on XMR and the fact it didn’t shoot right back down afterwards was impressive.
This is the first part of the adoption curve.
the end goal is to functionally eliminate all tax on sales and income, forcing the government to be funded through a single tax based on the unimproved value of land
I am an xmr fag but i've only come back to biz to talk about the recent price action, and i'm excited about fcmp++
impossible.
Money stock grows by ~5% every year forever, $5T in fresh new capital desperately seeking an asset, bitcoin going to infinity in-the-limit is guaranteed.
Network effect. If there’s enough demand for feature X such that shitcoin N with feature X can overcome BTC’s (insurmountable) lead, there’s obviously enough demand for a feature X bitcoin fork which would dominate as it inherits bitcoin’s network.
As I said “if there’s demand”, there wasn’t demand or BCH would have dominated. But the future is the future, should demand change, outcomes will change.
Dull.
Bitcoin is a better abstract economic unit than the alternatives, this is simply the math. Understand that belief plays no part in value, price carries information precisely because it is the product of supply and demand alone, any ‘belief’ component is encoded via these and is not an additional variable. Bitcoin is a more useful economic unit than the alternatives as its perfectly inelastic supply increases the fidelity of its price signal, before bitcoin we did not have the means to create a trustless fixed economic unit, now we do, such a unit is systemically useful beyond comprehension as it massively increases the efficiency of economic calculation.
As I said “if there’s demand”, there wasn’t demand or BCH would have dominated. But the future is the future, should demand change, outcomes will change.
There wasn't demand because bitcoin had already been delisted from steam and other major vendors due to the transaction fees and volatility. BTC was the face of cryptocurrency, and when companies realized BTC wasn't practical for payments they gave up on cryptocurrency altogether.
Network effect. If there’s enough demand for feature X such that shitcoin N with feature X can overcome BTC’s (insurmountable) lead, there’s obviously enough demand for a feature X bitcoin fork which would dominate as it inherits bitcoin’s network.
The assumption here is that everyone who wants to use cryptocurrency as a means of exchange will baghold for bitcoiners who can't get their network to function. Who would embrace a bitcoin fork like this at the last possible moment? Why not just use an "established" means of exchange like XMR, LTC, BCH and a million others with decent enough token distribution?
Compare an new user-activated fork like EthPOW to an old one like ETC. The established forks and cryptocurrencies are always more successful than the new ones due to network effects.
No one in the BTC userbase would ever support a bitcoin fork because that would mean fewer people holding their bags in the future. So there is no benefit to catering to them.
No one who uses bitcoin today wants to increase the blocksize. Anyone with the sense to do that and the money to put where their mouth is lost all their money in the blocksize war. The BTC userbase is composed of the stupid people left, and newcomers (who are increasingly boomers). "Small block ideology" and "never hard fork, ever" is baked in to the propaganda used to onboard all new bitcoiners.
BTC's biggest problems aren't technical, they are social. We nitpick BTC's technical problems because the social problems make them impossible to fix. On their own, the technical problems are incredibly easy to fix. Bitcoin scaling could be solved for the next decade with one line of code. Getting the modern bitcoiner (who has never written a line of C++ in their life) to accept this change is impossible.
As a cryptocurrency grows in users, the userbase always gets dumber and fragments. It's just entropy.
Dull.
Words Words Words, stuff that also applies to every other cryptocurrency ever made, Words Words Words
Bitcoin (and cryptocurrencies in general) can't function without some inflation because they need to allocate funds from to pay for the security of the network against 51% attacks.
The current tokenomics serve only to create a currency that is deflationary for a short period of time before imploding due to security issues.
If the market is rational (which it isn't) all of bitcoin's future growth is priced in. We're lucky to live in an irrational market, where you can profit from the disparity of information.